People always say never to meet your heroes, but what if you get to meet your hero twice because you don’t understand how Google Meet works?

It might make you a little tired trying to keep up with everything that singer-songwriter Dustin Hayes is connected to. He cofounded the record label and art collective Making New Enemies, which has released an armful of records alongside a late-night-esque comedy show, a lo-fi surf film, and an annual community collaborative album called Group Picture, currently fourteen iterations deep. Hayes directed and edited a “mumblecore soap opera” short film called Library Card. He’s dabbled in podcasting, blogging, and photography. He’s even been a ping-pong referee.

At the center of this rich, creative universe lies beloved folk-punk band Walter Mitty and His Makeshift Orchestra, as well as its electric, more experimental sibling, Walter Etc., which Dustin founded after Walter Mitty took a hiatus way back in 2015. Since the band’s founding, virtually all of Dustin’s latest musical work has been under the Walter Etc. name, aside from a compilation of Walter Mitty B-sides and oddities in 2019.

But that all changes with Yikes Almighty, Walter Mitty’s first new album in over ten years. Mixing the DIY acoustic colors characteristic of Walter Mitty with new sounds echoing the experimentation of his Walter Etc. offerings, Yikes Almighty is a soul-searching snapshot of where Dustin is currently in his life. Hayes’ honest songwriting takes on new shapes as his lyrics filter through the sieve of adulthood, yet never lose their poignancy or authenticity.

After meeting once from the comfort of our own homes and failing to properly record our interview, Dustin was nice enough to meet again for a second interview to talk about the circumstances leading up to Yikes Almighty, the album’s eclectic rollout, spirituality in your early 30s, and what exactly the point of the whole Walter-verse is.

This interview has been edited for clarity and length.

SWIM: Thank you for being so flexible. I’m so sorry that this entire thing happened. Apparently, I don’t know how to work technology, despite what I say on my resume.

DUSTIN: No worries. I would have done the exact same thing.

SWIM: I was like, oh, yeah, I see a red recording dot! We’re good to go. Realize after the interview that it’s not a recording dot, it’s just letting me know I’m using my microphone. Oh. It’s probably going to be a little bit of a repeat of Monday for the most part. I’m bummed because we had a really good conversation on Monday, but...

DUSTIN: It’s all good!

SWIM: What can you do, man. Anyway, how are you doing?

DUSTIN: Good. This was just reminding me of my ultimate Zoom mistake where I threw an online party for Group Picture. It was the first time I did a Zoom party, and I didn’t realize you can’t just throw the Zoom link out on social media without something happening, so I shared the link on Twitter and I was like, “We’re live now!” And then we got all these bots coming into the chat, and then there’s just porn on the screen. I was like, “Holy shit!” And then they appropriated one of our friends’ usernames, so it looked like our friend was talking in the chat and saying all these terrible things.

SWIM: Dude, that’s so funny. My girlfriend and I have a book club with our friends, and that happened to us too! We don’t even know how this person got in, but they did the same thing. My girlfriend’s sister’s name is Maria, and they joined under “Maria’s iPhone.” So everyone’s like, “Okay, cool, Maria’s here!” They join and they’re just streaming Pornhub, so everyone’s like “Oh my god, what is she doing?!” Then we realize that it’s not her because she actually tried to join after!

DUSTIN: This is the Wild West out here.

SWIM: I know, honestly, if you’re in a public Zoom, it is the Wild West. So let’s just take it back to square one. Earlier this week, we talked about Yikes Almighty being the first Walter Mitty album in ten years. I want to ask you more about the recording process because before we even knew about this album, you were posting pictures of yourself in a room hitting this triangle-like instrument, showing off toy pianos and all these new sorts of sounds for a Walter Mitty record. How did that come about? What were you going through at the time? Where were you listening to?

DUSTIN: I don’t know if I really remember exactly what I was listening to, but I was definitely just kind of getting back to my roots in those sounds. The very first Walter Mitty record I had to make in a bedroom because I didn’t have access to anything. I just had an acoustic guitar and random stuff around me. So that’s kind of always been like the home base for me with recording.

When I was making Yikes Almighty, I didn’t have a home and I went to our drummer Chris’s house out in Denver, so it was kind of just back to square one. I was going around his house looking through things to hit [for percussion]. That’s why I was hitting the pan lid! But then I took it a step further on this album – I went to a thrift store and I bought a bunch of kid’s toys and started messing with those. So I could have, you know, used more real instruments, but the circumstances kind of gave me a “back to the beginning, back to the basics.”

SWIM: Right. Almost like a full circle, in a sense.

DUSTIN: Yeah, exactly. A little full circle as far as the production and where I was at in life.

SWIM: I feel like... in some ways, this is kind of a full-circle Walter Mitty album. For example, the last track on Yikes Almighty is “101 S.” I think a lot of listeners, especially if they’ve been Walter Heads for a long time, they’re going to notice that title right away: “101 N” is one of your most popular songs. Are those two connected?

DUSTIN: There’s definitely a connection for me, like, in my head and life, but I think musically or lyrically… “101 S” is not a continuation of “101 N.” I guess the vibes behind them are kind of similar. “101 N” was about leaving home when I was a kid in Orange County and moving out for my first time when I was eighteen and being scared and excited and hitting the road and taking the 101 North Freeway into the Great Unknown. Then “101 S” is from my thirties when I left my life in Ventura and I moved south to LA, and it also felt like leaving it all behind, going into the Great Unknown. This was the unknown of Los Angeles and a life with no job and no home, no partner and no band or… anything. I was just living out of my truck in LA. “101 S” just made sense because it was the same exact feeling as “101 N” of going off into the great unknown in a new moment of life, but this was the reverse of the original. So yeah, they’re pretty spiritually connected. In my head, it’s like yin and yang, but to a random listener, it’s probably just another song. [Laughs]

SWIM: I love that. I want to circle back to the treasure hunt album rollout. It’s just such a badass idea! I remember you talking briefly about an author that was a huge source of inspiration for it?

DUSTIN: It was really a confluence of things, but there was this author named Forrest Fenn who had a treasure- I’ve never read Forrest Fenn or anything, I just know the lore- but he had a treasure with these Native American artifacts, Spanish gold, and very valuable things worth over a million dollars then buried it in the Rocky Mountains. He just left a poem that was the treasure map to find it, and it was a big deal… I think there’s a Netflix documentary about it?

So my dad told me about that, and he would always joke that we should go find the treasure! [Laughs] I always thought it was super sick. So the idea was in my head, like, I want to do something like that one day! And then my friend Sarah was telling me about a sculptor she knows who buries their sculptures in the desert for people to dig up. And I was like, that’s the coolest, most romantic thing I’ve ever heard. So when I heard Sarah tell me that, it reminded me of the Fenn treasure and it all kind of just clicked in my head. I was like, “Oh, I have to bury an album one day!” And then I was like, “I’m just going to bury my next album because life is short,” you know?

SWIM: I mean, there’s no better time than the present, right?

DUSTIN: Exactly.

SWIM: Does that whole idea have anything to do with the name Yikes Almighty? I feel like that sounds something like finding something or some sort of adventure, but maybe one where you don’t like what you find.

DUSTIN: I love that. I love that. They don’t have any literal connection, but energetically, it felt the same. I had the name Yikes Almighty before the treasure hunt really got underway, so they didn’t really have anything to do with each other. Yikes Almighty is just jumping off and taking a big risk and just going for something, even if it’s messy or doesn’t make sense right away, and just trusting your gut and going for it. So the essence of the treasure hunt is very much in line with that same philosophy.

SWIM: I love it, dude, it’s such an interesting idea. I had never heard of anything like it, and you’re giving me all these references that have already been done. Last time we talked, we discussed writing and how you had wanted to write about your touring adventures and all that fun stuff, but one thing I wanted to check in on is watercolor painting! Are you still a painter?

Dustin [Laughs] Definitely goes in phases, you know. It’ll go in phases where I’ll do a bunch at once and then stop for like months. I recently did this thing for the album [holds up a water color illustration themed around ‘Yikes Almighty’]. But besides that, I haven’t really been watercoloring too much. I’ll get back into it, though. I’d like to.

SWIM: Yeah, I’d imagine you got a lot coming up, so I get if it’s not, you know, the primary goal right now to become a watercolor artist. I just wanted to know because I remember you posted this funny story on Patreon about how you came into contact with this watercolor artist. Was it Craigslist? Or am I getting it confused with something else?

DUSTIN: It was!

SWIM: [Laughs] That’s so random. That’s so cool, though. I miss Craigslist so much. Well, I mean, I guess it’s still there, but like when it was, you know… before Offer Up and all those apps and stuff.

DUSTIN: Yeah, it’s not quite as active anymore. But you know how it is. I have a lot of things I wish I could pursue and get good at, but I don’t even try! I always get sidetracked and start making more music.

SWIM: I know, it’s hard to find time. I mean, speaking of busy schedules, I know you have the Taxpayers tour coming up, and I know we talked about the Apes of the State show happening in LA in October, and you just wrapped up your solo living room tour. How is the touring experience on your own compared to touring with a band?

DUSTIN: Oh, it’s so different. Some quick pros and cons: On the solo tour, it’s like, I have all day. It’s just my own schedule. You don’t have to show up as early when it’s just you on an acoustic guitar, you know? I was going to skate parks and surfing and posting up in a park and just playing guitar or reading and it was so chill. Then after the show, I’m just getting in the car. I don’t have a lot of money, so I was just sleeping in my car. In Santa Rosa, I was like, ‘I guess I’m just going to drive out to the coast tonight and sleep in Bedego Bay and wake up on the NorCal coast and look for waves.’

But after a show, good or bad, it’s just… everyone kind of leaves, and then I’m just like, “Oh, all right!’ There’s not really anyone to hang with at the end of the night, and I’m just alone in the car, just with my thoughts. It’s so lonely! I don’t have a bandmate to be like, “How was your night?” You’re truly alone. Pros and cons with a band… It’s fun to share the excitement and the adventure with your friends, but it’s a lot easier to travel and do logistical things as a solo person.

SWIM: Yeah, I can imagine. There’s so much logistics, and especially considering how expensive it is now to tour… I can only imagine how much of a pain in the ass it is to just coordinate everything with everybody.

DUSTIN: Yeah, that’s true, too. Money-wise, it’s actually feasible alone. It’s not as a band. And then you’re thinking about where we are going to stay? Are we getting a hotel? But hanging out with my old friends, the bandmates, is just invaluable.

SWIM: It’s priceless.

DUSTIN: Right. I can’t put a dollar on it.

SWIM: I know we kind of talked about “101 S” earlier, but I really want to go back to the lyrics on this album because you’re such a great lyricist, and the first thing I want to talk about is that spiritual tinge that we touched on a little bit on Monday. I remember you saying that you’re not a born-again Christian or anything like that, but there is definitely a little bit of spirituality on this record. Going back to the older Walter Mitty records, there are lines like “Now it’s God that thinks that I don’t actually exist” and “This is why pseudo-intellectual tells us that we need our vices.” It felt like you were kind of turning away from that sort of idea, but in this record, you say, ‘I’m talking to, you know, girls that are smarter than me and I’m trying to convince them that there’s a higher purpose.’ There’s a very distinct shift into “maybe there is some truth to all this spiritual stuff?” and you’re trying to show others that.

DUSTIN: Totally. I definitely haven’t become a Christian or joined any organized religion, but I think there’s more room for it in my life now. It’s funny because I feel like with younger kids now God is kind of cool, but when I was younger God was very uncool. If you were alternative and into punk music, you were against the church and organized religion and all of that dogma.

SWIM: Yeah. They’d call you a poser if they found out you went to church!

DUSTIN: Exactly, yeah. And not that that’s right or wrong, but, yeah, that’s where I was coming from when I was younger, like 19 to 25 or whatever. It was pushing away any sort of spirituality or religion and not accepting it. And as I’ve grown older, there really is a place for this. It kind of turned from a philosophy of “everything’s meaningless” to “yes, everything’s meaningless, but we create our own reality- whatever meaning you put into that void is actually going to have meaning.” So it’s not meaningless! It’s just a customized spiritual, meaningful existence you create for yourself.

So that’s where I feel like this new album is coming from, philosophically. A little more of allowing myself to feel love and not just being cynical. Like “love’s just a trick we play on ourselves.” Now it’s more allowing myself to believe in that or allowing myself to think about a higher power and assign myself a higher purpose. So there definitely is a spiritual, philosophical evolution between Old Walter and New Walter. I think it’s just a little less angsty and young and a little more calm and confident in the chaos.

SWIM: Right. And I think you said you’ve given yourself grace to accept that love for yourself and others, which I love for you, and I think it makes perfect sense. We’re almost the same age. I feel like I’ve also gone through more of an acceptance or more of an open mind to that stuff. We almost had the same exact character arc [Laughs]. I was also like “fuck religion! Church sucks!” I was probably very insufferable, but that’s part of growing up.

DUSTIN: It’s part of growing up, yeah.

*Walter Etc. backyard show in Long Beach, CA. Photo by Nickolas Sackett.*

SWIM: Speaking of growing up, there’s one thing that really surprised me listening to this record: you make a lot of references to having children in this record.

DUSTIN: Damn. That’s probably true. [Laughs]

SWIM: Do you want children?

DUSTIN: Theoretically, yeah.

SWIM: Have you become more open to that as you’ve gotten older?

DUSTIN: Well, I was never against having kids. I would love to have kids. I love kids. Yeah. I love kids. Always have. I haven’t had a lot of jobs throughout my life, but I have always been nannying and babysitting and teaching. But it’s more a matter of if I can have some more stability and money and stuff like that. You know what I mean?

SWIM: Yeah, I know. I totally understand.

DUSTIN: And then there’s the whole, ‘is it ethical to bring a kid into a dying world?’ but that’s a whole other conversation. But kids are awesome. How about you?

SWIM: It’s funny you ask that because, again, same character arc- I was not really for having kids because of the whole ethical dilemma, and also my childhood experience of not really knowing my dad. But I’ve gotten older. I’ve been working at the same school for about five years, and the fifth graders who were promoted to sixth grade this year were in first grade when I started. So it was very strange seeing these students for five years and watching them grow and become their own persons and go through shit and see their wins and their losses. It just made me see how important children are and how wonderful they are. As I’ve gotten older, I see the allure of having a family of your own and having that chance to create a little person who has their own thoughts and feelings in the world. For them to carry the torch, but not in some weird patriarchal way. They’re like an artwork, you know?

DUSTIN: For sure.

SWIM: I struggled with the same things: bringing a child into the dying world, stability, all that fun stuff. But definitely stuck out to me on the album because I don’t think I’ve ever heard you sing about children. I want to circle back to this Patreon post you made about people having this preconstructed idea of Dustin based on your songs. You shared that this is a source of discomfort when people act like they know who you are based on the songs you write, or they have this very clear idea of who you are before they even get a chance to actually talk to you. Does that still affect you?

DUSTIN: I don’t want to overplay it. It’s not like I’m famous or something [Laughs]. But in my direct life, with friends and family, for sure. The first few Walter albums, there was just literally no one listening to us, you know? Maybe some friends, but my parents weren’t really listening, and I could just kind of say whatever. There weren’t any consequences in my real life, so I developed this personal, artistic philosophy where I’m really writing about my life and being super honest and vulnerable and… sometimes very specific in these songs.

There’s a divide between the world of Walter and the world of Dustin, but the songs are usually like 90% true to my life and like 10% poetic license. But as time has gone on and more friends and family have become fully aware of the band, they’ve accepted it as, ‘This is what Dustin does!’ I know they’re going to hear stuff when I release it, and it does create more of a block or an obstacle, so I have to just be a little bit reckless and kind of trick myself while I’m writing things and be like “okay, I never actually have to release this or show it to anybody just so I can write it as purely and honestly and true to what I want.” Then I decide later if I’m going to release it, and once I like it, I’m just like, ‘fuck it,’ and I release it. [Laughs]

But then I deal with the consequences in my life, like people get mad at me or get confused about things, uncomfortable. And they assume because my songs are so literal and raw that they just assume everything is 100% true, so if there’s a little bit of fictionalizing or poetic license taken here and there in a song, it’s taken as 100% fact. It’s just a funny life I’ve chosen for myself, but ultimately, I still have that mission to be as pure, honest, raw, and prolific of an artist in my lifetime as I can be. It’s still my number one priority and value, so I’m just sticking to it, and everything else can come second.

SWIM: Take it to the chin, like we said last time!

DUSTIN: [Laughs] Yeah, that’s what we were saying. Yeah, take it to the chin. Be brave and keep it going.

SWIM: Love it, dude. I think that’s a pretty noble goal to have in a creative life.

DUSTIN: I don’t know if it is, though. Is it? I don’t know. I feel like it is. I don’t know what people’s goals are.

SWIM: I guess that goes back to the meaning you crave for yourself, right?

DUSTIN: It is! That’s true.

SWIM: All right, I just have the last question that I asked you last time. I brought up this whole concept that many artists have talked about in the past. I know James Baldwin is probably the most famous example of this quote; he says something along the lines that he’s essentially writing the same story over and over and over again, but he’s just adding a different perspective on it. I feel like you’ve also touched on that briefly in your music. In “Um” from Always Leaving, you say, “the same chord progressions, but my lyrics were better back then.” What is Walter’s story, and do you think you’re constantly writing it and rewriting it?

DUSTIN: Yeah. It’s a really interesting thought. I used to think - I think I still think this, but I’ve kind of lost the thread on this theory. There was a time I felt really strongly that all art is about the same thing. Like everyone’s art is about the same thing. If you zoom out far enough, it’s all trying to say the same thing and kind of describing different parts of the same elephant. So speaking just for all Walter songs, that same zooming out and describing different parts of the same elephant is true. I can’t, or any other writer, can’t get out of themselves. Everything is their own experience. So whether you’re writing about yourself or writing about other people, you’re ultimately writing about your experience of the world.

I feel all Walter’s songs are about this journey through life, and maybe the elephant is the timeline of life as we experience it, and each song is describing a little chunk of that Walter timeline. Ultimately, at least in Walter’s songs, the writing is about struggles with mental health and knowing yourself. And then knowing how to deal with yourself and relationships with other people and how to deal with people. And then the third conflict is usually with the world and society and how to stay sane and make your life in the crazy, chaotic, crumbling world. So yeah, I think all Walter’s songs are kind of just about life’s journey for me.

SWIM: I love that, dude. You’re very existential. Have you read existential philosophy before?

DUSTIN: [Laughs] Not really.

SWIM: Really? That’s surprising. Because earlier you talked about creating your own meaning, and that’s the core tenet of existentialist philosophies. Existence precedes essence, which means you have to create; you’re not born with a meaning, you create your own meaning. And then you’re talking about this mingling of Self with the Other and all that.

DUSTIN: That’s funny. Well, I mean, I listen to some philosophy podcasts and I’ve read some books and stuff, but it’s not like I’m a philosopher or something, you know?

SWIM: I mean, you kind of are, in some sense. Aren’t we all?

Thank you guys so much. I can’t thank you guys enough for being so flexible.

LIZZIE: Yeah, all good!

DUSTIN: Lizzie, you’ve been here the whole time?!

LIZZIE: [Laughs] Yeah, I was. I’ve been, you know, answering emails at the same time.

DUSTIN: I hope you had us muted. I am embarrassed to know you’ve been listening.

[Everyone laughs]

SWIM: Thank you so much. I hope you guys enjoy the rest of your week. Thank you, Dustin! It was great. It’s a dream come true to talk to you, twice even.

DUSTIN: No, it was fun. I hope to talk to you again on a show or something!

SWIM: I’m definitely planning on seeing you guys with Apes of the State. So hopefully, I’ll be able to say what’s up.

DUSTIN: Perfect. You should reach out!

SWIM: All right! You guys take care. Thank you guys.

EVERYONE: Bye-bye!

The recording has stopped

Nickolas is an artist based in Southern California. Described by a beloved elementary teacher as an “absolute pleasure to have in class,” his work wrestles with the conflict between privacy and self-expression in the digital age. You can find him shitposting on Twitter @DjQuicknut and on Instagram @sopranos_on_dvd_.

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Different Parts of the Same Elephant: An Interview With Dustin Hayes of Walter Mitty and His Makeshift Orchestra